Wednesday, November 23, 2016

EXCLUSIVE: The Okie Traditionalist Interviews "Pope Michael" of Kansas, USA

Disclaimer: consider this is a "Catholic human interest story" to give ya'll some momentary relief from the latest ecclesiastical gaslighting coming from Francis. I'm not a proponent of the papal claims of one Pope Michael.  Its just that I think he's thought-provoking and refreshingly genuine.  I address him as "Pope Michael" since that's the name he's been going by for decades.  

Introduction:  So, there's a traditional Catholic man who, for over 25 years, has been living his life in rural Kansas with the earnest conviction he was validly elected to the papacy in 1990.  Over the years, I couldn't help be curious about his story since he lives just one state north of mine, and turns out was born and raised in Oklahoma City.

I recently pondered his story here: LINK. A fellow trad blogger Mahound's Paradise followed suit here LINK. And Kudos to Canon 212 blog for picking up our posts.

Pope Michael Documentary.  About an Hour Long. 

He has almost entirely been characterized over the years as a bizarre, loonie phenomenon of the traditionalist movement.  I understand that.  But to me there's something beneath the common laughable caricature of him--a quiet, humble, devout man who has something relevant to say, to whom at least some traditional Catholics can relate during this time of ecclesial crisis.   I know I've personally found his youtube videos edifying over the years.  I may be risking my blog stats on this one, but my bet is you'll find his willing interview compelling and elevating.

Without further ado, I give you Pope Michael the First, of Topeka, Kansas...

Interview with Pope Michael:

Thank you Pope Michael very much for granting The Okie Traditionalist blog this interview.  Perhaps past interviews with others have focused more directly on your claim to the papacy, and contesting the legitimacy of the popes and bishops following Vatican II.  But I’d like this interview to be a bit different.   I would like to get your insights as a man, as a Catholic--who yes I believe sincerely believes he was actually elected to the office of pope--but who, like many of us confessing the traditional Catholic Faith, is first and foremost trying to become a saint.

Can you tell us where you are now living? About the house you’ve settled into? What your day-to-day life is like?

I live in an old Victorian house built in the late 1800's in the neighborhood of Oakland in Topeka. It is four bedrooms and three baths and in need of a bit of work yet as it was a repossession. I live with Frater Francis Dominic, who joined me over a year ago to work for the Church. Our life is simple. We rise about 6:30 and have an hour of prayer from 7:30 to 8:30 followed by Mass. After Mass we eat breakfast and are off to work. Frater Francis Dominic now manages I write and study, as well as run Christ the King Library This is what feeds us. We are bringing out of copyright Catholic books back into print, because truth is timeless.

We have Rosary together at three in the afternoon in conjunction with one of our priests, who prays from his home at the same time. We plan dinner for around seven in the evening. Before dinner we may sit on the porch in the summer or in the living room in the winter for a spell. We retire about nine in the evening. Some times we will watch a religious video on the internet or even a movie to relax, as we have no cable television.

I’ve heard your mother’s health has declined. How is she doing? She strikes me as a salt-of-the-earth Catholic with a warm heart. PS My condolences on your brother’s passing. May he rest in peace.

Mom started slowing down shortly after her 83rd birthday in 2011. When I moved to Topeka in 2013, she moved into independent living. She drives over for Sunday Mass every week, unless snow is expected. Then I pick her up the day before and she spends the night in our main floor guest room. She will also come occasionally and spend the night or even a day or two and participate in prayers as well as eat some of her favorite foods. During the All Souls Octave, we took a trip out to visit Dad's and my brother's graves and pray to gain the plenary indulgence for the All Souls Octave. Mom and I made it to a cemetery every day of the octave as we both have a special devotion to the Poor forgotten Souls in Purgatory.

This may be a challenging question. Can you relate to us on a human, personal level what it has been like to live life for over a Quarter of a Century in Kansas, USA believing you are actually the pope, while almost everyone dismisses you as either "crazy" or an "anti-pope." Can you share with readers what this has been like for you?

This is a challenging question. I am a veteran in the movement, leaving Novus Ordo 44 years ago at age 13. This was an unpopular decision and not 'religiously correct' nor acceptable. We believed that we are in the Great Apostasy (II Thessalonians 2) and were ready to be persecuted and possibly even martyred. And this shaped my thinking. In making the decision the question is not whether or not anyone will accept, but is this God's will.

Several times I had to make unpopular decisions, that brought ridicule and even shunning, because of my position. “And you shall be hated by all men for my name' s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.” (Matthew 10:22) And so, when I realized we needed to organize the election of a Pope, I was ready to be hated. I was ready to be called every name in the book, and this for helping organizing the election of a Pope. When three quarters of those showing solid support began making excuses why we should not proceed now, I knew it would be difficult. Most were based on human respect, which we know is worse than worthless. It has not been easy. Many surrounding me for a quarter of a century wanted an easy way to end the problem, when God expects us to be faithful to His holy will and do the work He gives us.

Turning to the issue of Francis in Rome. Overwhelming evidence suggests he holds a heretical opinion on Communion for the divorced-and-remarried. 4 cardinals have publicized their dubia. A line has been drawn in the sand. Aside from the question who is currently the true pope, what are your thoughts on this situation?

For many, this will be a time of decision.  We all had these times in the past, which is why we are where we are today. In 1972 for my family it was whether or not to depart Novus Ordo, which we decided to do. Traditional Catholics know the true doctrine, that the divorced and remarried may not receive Holy Communion while living in sin. In fact, in the United States there is an excommunication from the Second Council of Baltimore for those who divorce and remarry. (Under Paul VI, the US Bishops asked for this excommunication to be removed, and Paul VI removed it.)

It is my opinion that Francis will reaffirm his heretical position, which will make it clear that he willfully adheres to heresy. Saint Robert Bellarmine states that a man cannot be head of a Church, which he has departed by heresy. It will be time for people to deal with the fact that Francis is not Pope and then look into the matter more closely.

I’m curious what you think of President-elect Donald Trump? Did you vote for him? Do you think his unexpected election was perhaps a divine intervention for the good of our country?

First of all President-elect Trump is one of the things wrong with this country. He is a public adulterer as was one other president in history, Ronald Reagan. Trump is on his third 'wife', while Reagan was on his second. “[16] Jesus saith to her: Go, call thy husband, and come hither. [17] The woman answered, and said: I have no husband. Jesus said to her: Thou hast said well, I have no husband: [18] For thou hast had five husbands: and he whom thou now hast, is not thy husband. This thou hast said truly.” (John 4:16-18) Note both men are 'conservatives', which means conservatives have lost sight of the doctrine that marriage lasts until death. None of the Democratic Presidents have been divorced and attempted to remarry.

The family seems to be one of the main institutions under attack by Satan today and the enemies of the Church. What counsel can you offer married people and parents at this moment in time, 2016?

First of all, pray for your family and for yourself. Daily family Rosary is not enough. If the schedule allows add morning and night prayers. Marriage is a school of selflessness, especially once you have children. Learn the Faith thoroughly, especially in matters regarding marriage and raising a family. I recommend getting rid of the television. You do not have time for the TV. Married couples need to spend quality time together and parents need to spend time with their children.

You need to do little things with your children. I have seen too many parents become so involved in trying to 'save' the Church or in fighting abortion, that they lose their own children. Parents, do your home work. Can we expect our children to come to us with serious questions, if we do not have a strong bond with them already? We need to make our own family our first priority after our own salvation. We need to stop getting distracted by 'side' issues. Instead we need to build strong families and prepare the children to follow our own good example.

Looking out across America and the world, you yourself are observing spiritual darkness. Disbelief, atheism, even public acts of satanism. What advise can you give to those professing the Catholic Faith, trying to become saints during these times?

“And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Go out from her, my people; that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.” (Apocalypse 18:4) We need to spiritually step away from the world. We need to spend our time on task, the task of becoming a saint. Some want to protest the public acts of satanism, but let us look to the early Christians. How did they counter a pagan world? They became saints, standing firm for the Faith when called. There were no protests in front of pagan temples, but prayers ascended from their homes.

We need to study the science of the saints and become masters of this science. We need to tend to our own duties and let the rest of the world do what it will. We need to live the Catholic way of life and preach by our good example, ready to put in a word when God gives an opening. An hour a day in prayer, true prayer would be a good idea. Begin with meditative reading of good spiritual books, such as Soul of the Apostolate. Meditation is nothing more than a sermon we preach to our own self from which we draw resolutions to conform our will more to the will of God.

Would you be open to more interviews in the future? What websites can readers look at to learn more about you? I’m sure readers would be interested to hear your views on church and world events as they unfold in the months and years to come.

Yes I would be willing to discuss issues as they arise.

Thank you again Pope Michael for this interview. I hope it will give readers a chance to know more about you. God bless.


  1. For a relatively solitary unmarried man he certainly has some insightful and important things to say about the family.

  2. Ronald Reagan's first marriage (1940-49), to Jane Wyman, was declared null by the Catholic Church when Wyman became a Catholic in 1954. Grounds: Wyman was validly married in 1937, though divorced within months.

    Thus, Ronnie and Nancy Reagan were validly married.

  3. Thanks for your comment Father. I did not know that (said in the voice of Johnny Carson).

    Any chance maybe Trump's first and second marriages have grounds for annulment?

  4. Was he ordained bishop by a Thuc bishop?

    1. Don't recall, but a while back I watched a youtube video of him explaining how after many years he finally got ordained a priest and a bishop.

    2. Duerte-Costa, ordained and consecrated in 2011 by one Bishop Robert Biarnesen, who just before converted to Catholicism, giving fealty to Pope Michael. At least one Duerte-Costa bishop Salomão Barbosa Ferraz ( was taken back without conditional ordination and consecration. The date of reconciliation was roughly 1958.

      The interviewee does seem a thoughtful man, rightly suggesting parents be careful of committing too heavily to cause like anti-abortion without forging a strong bond with their children.

    3. Interesting. Is Bishop Biarnesen still with Pope Michael, believing he is pope??

    4. No, he is now validly ordained. The ordination that he received, that was applied to Mr. Bawden is invalid. Period. This can be plainly proven.

    5. The Duarte-Costa line is valid.
      Learn the rules concerning validity.Our opinions concerning Sacramental Theology don't matter,learn what the Church teaches and obide by it 100%.

  5. I would venture a guess and say, a type of schizophrenia?

    1. He doesn't appear to be anymore mentally ill than your average American, perhaps even less so. :)

    2. That's offensive. Perhaps you did not intend it so, but I don't know how. You have just maligned an entire continent. Congratulations.

    3. "He doesn't appear to be any more mentally ill than your average American..."
      Perhaps I misunderstand, and I haven't been here long enough to know your background, I don't mind insults about Americans from other Americans, but I admit I don't like it when outsiders insult us. So if you are an American, I take back what I said, understanding you are saying it as an insider. It may seem a minor point to some people, but I have grown fatigued from anti-Americanism over the years and don't feel like taking it quietly anymore.
      God bless. :)

    4. No worries. Yeah if it was coming from say a Brit, I would have taken offense too. :)

  6. Thank you for this interview. I have said this elsewhere, if only our current pope sounded half as Catholic as this gentleman. I watched the video about Pope Michael, and except for the claim to be pope, there is not one thing he says that I can recall that departs from orthodox Catholicism as most of us understand it. One can disagree, but one cannot deny this man's sincerity. I would trust this man's opinion about matters of Catholicism far more than most American bishops today. What a tragic statement that is, it gives me no pleasure to say it, but it is the unvarnished truth.

    1. Joseph I think I misinterpreted you. Please see above and I hope you understand my response. Thank you.

    2. No worries. Yeah if it was coming from say a Brit, I would have taken offense too. :)

  7. I have been praying all traditional bishops unite,hold meetings,an eventual conclave,reinforce the after midnight Holy Communion fast,reject all changes made by Pius XII starting in early 1951,and end this sedevacante.
    Pope Michael is leading the way and like many famous people,he will be admired in his last years or after his death.
    The Traditional Bishops don't want a Pope as they are used to being their own boss.
    He's not crazy and history will prove him correct.
    For the record I used to laugh at this guy and insult him on blogs.His YouTube videos are what first opened my eyes.
    The Duarte-Costa line is Valid.

  8. Do you know whatever happened to the seminarian who was in the video production some years back?