Tuesday, April 3, 2018

The Okie Traditionalist Challenges fellow Okie Trad Blogger Laramie Hirsch: "Alt-Right, Rad Trad" Apologist, Sir Charles Coulombe (indirectly) Helps

Preface: I believe many Okie Catholic readers have associated this blog with that of fellow Okie Trad Blogger Laramie Hirsch, the author of The Hirsch Files.  He now has a new blog called The Forge and Anvil.  We agree on many things, especially on preserving our Catholic tradition, but take opposing views on a variety of subjects, worthy of debate.  Such is life.

The second half of this post discusses Sir Charles Coulombe's Podcast on the Alt Right. 


Well, I haven't received a reply yet from Hirsch about re-engaging this debate from a year ago, on our blogs.  Darn it.  I know he is very busy, as I am. No worries, I'm sitting up late ruminating and reflecting, sipping some diet Coke, before he gets back to me.  I hope.  

But I did notice a comment this week on his new blog (not me, I pinkie swear) saying:

Haven’t you distanced yourself from the Alt-Right brand? Do you no longer buy into the 16 Points? Okie Traditionalist re-posted an old article saying you’re trying to convince Catholics to be Alt-Right.

The reader must be thinking of his recent comments about traditional Catholics and the Alt Right:

But to my surprise, when I attempted to discuss the Alt-Right with my fellow Traditional Catholics in the beginning of 2018, they also blew off the Alt-Right as a group of neo-Nazis. I was shocked at the ignorance of my colleagues. Have they not kept up with things as I have? ...

Yet, at the end of the same post, Hirsch surmises:

Will I continue to proudly claim to be Alt-Right in the future? I’m not so sure anymore. Some people such as Vox Day continue to hold onto the brand, as they’ve invested a lot into it. I know that I have certainly talked it up in public and with friends. However, as I sometimes say, I’ve made mistakes before.

Yes, The Okie Traditionalist Knows Laramie Hirsch, a fellow Okie Trad: 

The thing is, I've personally known Hirsch for over two years in the flesh, and probably since 2013 in the trad forums online, and have collaborated in the past on blogging stories.  

But I feel this disagreement is worthy to be engaged because he has made the Alt Right (and associated movements MGTOW, Game Theory, etc.) central to his weekly articles and outlook.  So I'm challenging him in charity, as a Catholic, and because Hirsch does have quite a following of Catholics who read these opinions.

The well-followed Chicago-based blogger Oakes Spalding of Mahounds Paradise has us both linked in his list of favorite blogs. Thanks Oakes.

Hirsch spreading his Alt Right Message to Traditional Catholics:

Recently Hirsch posted to Catholic Info forum his blog post promoting the Alt Right, and elsewhere on FB, etc., saying to a fellow traditional Catholic who challenged him:

As for us...the Alt-Right can teach us to be the vicious political animals we need to be again.

Vicious political animals?  Again?  Catholics used to be "vicious political animals?"  Catholic immigrants to this country - my ancestors -typically interacted in politics in a "vicious" way?  As "political animals?"  I would be very interested to read from what American history book  Laramie got this information, Catholic or otherwise. Or is he thinking of the Hollywood movie Gangs of New York?

Incidentally, I would be remiss if I did not gently admonish Laramie when he spoke mispoke on another CI thread:

My philosophy, if you stumble upon your enemy's AK47, pick it up and use it until it runs out of ammunition.

Knowing Hirsch fairly well, I can't believe this is really his position, in his heart of hearts, but more a reflection of typical Alt Right bloggers he follows daily, like the secular Vox Day who disagrees with Our Lord on at least one major point:

43 You have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour and hate thy enemy.[6] 44 But I tell you, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, pray for those who persecute and insult you, 45 that so you may be true sons of your Father in heaven, who makes his sun rise on the evil and equally on the good, his rain fall on the just and equally on the unjust. 46 If you love those who love you, what title have you to a reward? Will not the publicans do as much? 47 If you greet none but your brethren, what are you doing more than others? Will not the very heathen do as much? 48 But you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect

(Matthew 5: 43-48)  emphasis mine

In the same CI thread, Hirsch tried to legitimize the Alt Right movement by citing Pat Buchanan as a traditional Catholic Alt Righter that he respects.  But try and do a long, extensive google or yahoo search, of articles going back many years.  You will discover the fact that Buchanan himself does not identify with the Alt Right;  rather some in the Alt Right claim he is one of them.  No other well-known traditional Catholic online, or in the flesh, actively supports this online phenomenon.

Except for Laramie Hirsch, from Tulsa, Oklahoma!

On the Contrary, Sir Charles Coulombe's Criticisms of the Alt Right, an Excellent Podcast:

In fact, after Hirsch told me he was writing a book as a kind of bridge between traditional Catholics and Alt-Righters (half of that equation at least would be noble, I'll concede that), about a year ago I asked the very well respected Sir Charles Coulombe (whose books converted Hirsch to Catholic monarchism) his thoughts on the Alt Right.  Interestingly, he did a Podcast a few months later on the Alt Right, aired on Veritas Radio Network, interviewed by traditional Catholic author Br. Andre Marie, MICM of The St. Benedict's Center where he is Prior.

Brother Andre Marie himself, a very high level thinker by the way, begins by saying the Alt Right is at heart reactionary, and more defined by what it is against than what it is clearly for.  He recognizes it as a "Big Tent," but underlines "deeply flawed ideologies" of its main leadership, which some Catholics are falling into.  (Time 4:00 - 06:30).  Later he says "I find the movement repulsive on a purely intellectual level," while sympathizing with some similarities it has with the Old Rite of once Catholic Europe.  His opinion alone is very sound and authoritative.

This is an excellent and very informative talk, but here are the main criticisms from Coulombe about the Alt Right, which I challenge Hirsch to consider and address.  I'll list them as I listen to the podcast, pausing to type them out.

Charles Coulombe's Criticisms of the Alt Right:

1.  Racism and anti-Semitism are serious moral problems in the Alt Right, those terms understood in the Catholic sense.

2.  From a Catholic perspective, it tends to "deify" "lesser things" of the world, especially race, ethnicity, and nationalism (Time 34:00 - 35:12).

3. He agrees with Br. Andre that the Alt Right does not respect the role of Black Americans in our history and culture.  (Time 54:00ish - 55:25).

4. And that Eugenics is a serious moral problem, in the sense used by Alt Right leaders in general (vs. the Catholic view of it).

5. And about their common love of Machiavelli, Nietzche, and Darwin in particular. "Regurgitated, German, 19th Century garbage," he completely agrees.

6.  The Alt Right makes religion a mere tool or means to political ends, rather than an end in itself, and Catholic Christianity is not necessarily the true religion for those purposes.

How then can a Catholic, in good conscience, seriously support the "Alt Right" movement?

We can't.


Hopefully Hirsch will find this debate worthy of his time, from a fellow traditional Catholic blogger, and Okie no less.  Time will tell.  If/when I do a podcast with Sir Charles, as we have discussed, this could be one topic to cover. 

That said, I did find Hirsch's defense of Church Latin, in his OnePeterFive article, to be fascinating and superb.  Click HERE.

As Laramie likes to say, Toodles!


  1. This would be a most interesting debate.

    1. It won't be the Fight Club or a quiet game of chess. More like rifle practice at the gun range to see who can get closest to the target, or maybe more like a paintgun contest.
      But the turtle seems to be sleeping in his shell right now. Come on Laramie, I double dog dare you to respond, perhaps with your own blog post...for old times sake. :)

  2. Laramie also has a major attachment to racial genetic determinism as interpreted through the revival of the famously misapplied "Curse of Ham" narrative. The alt-right was a natural place for him to go. The risk of being a blogger is that even though you may hit the nail on the head 99% of the time it's that one percent when you drive that nail the hands and feet of Christ that can really ruin you, and it really ruined Laramie.

  3. I haven't given up on him, even though he won't publish my comments on his new blog.
    He and I have remarkable similarities - traditional Catholics, in Tulsa, living 5 miles from eachother, married to a non-caucasion European American, as he and I are, our devotion to family, love of gardening and outdoor adventure, etc. But we have serious differences such as his devotion to the Alt Right. Hopefully at some point he will listen to other people's point of view on that subject, ie his fellow traditional Catholics, like Charles Coulombe he he often writes about in admiration. His podcast on the Alt Right should be enough to steer Hirsch away from it, I hope. If anything, that is the main purpose of this blog post.

    1. Laramie always comes off as a decent guy who's really trying to make sense of things. I hope he does manage to get back on the right track. It just goes to show you how many pitfalls there are for us as latchkey Catholics in an age of absentee Catholicism. Maybe one of these days he'll give you the time of day again.

    2. You hit the nail on the head. Instead, we need to turn to other faithful Catholics for guidance. There are good laity and priests out there whose advise and catechesis we can trust, besides our own private opinions. My hope is that Hirsch gives THEM the time of day, not me.

  4. Replies
    1. I read that verse. Can you tell us why you posted it? How does that verse from Holy Scripture support the Alt-Right movement/ideology? It doesn't.

    2. It is but one of many examples where the Lord expects his followers to be armed and prepared for battle.

      But the reason I posted it was to prove that you're an effeminate pussy, and no man of God. Repent of your wicked ways, and grow some testicles, faggot. Eunuchs have been less sneaky and womanly than you.

  5. This is Aurini, a major Alt Right blogger?
    Guy, when you have to lower yourself to insults like this, that just shows you are not able to answer the objections to the so-called Alt Right. The answer is the Catholic Faith, the Faith established by Christ, not another fundamentalist ideology.